“Unfortunately, there are still no objective methods for measuring depression.”
Larisa: Hello and welcome to the Mental Health for Romania podcast! I’m Larisa, a psychiatry researcher, and today I’m joined by Rodica.
Rodica: Hello! I’m Rodica, and I’m a psychological counsellor. Today, we’re going to talk about depression, or major depressive disorder, a topic of great interest to many of us given its very high prevalence.
Larisa: Rodica, could you give us a definition of depression?
Rodica: Of course. I think it’s important to begin with a brief overview, considering that we’ll be exploring the symptoms, conceptualisation, and treatment in much greater depth later on.
We can say that depression is a mental health disorder that can affect every area of a person’s life. In general, when someone is going through a depressive episode, we can recognise it by the difficulties they have in actively engaging in relationships, work-related responsibilities, or household tasks. The main emotional state we tend to observe in these individuals is one of profound sadness, and I know you’ll be talking about that in more detail a little later. Generally, when we use the term “depression”, we are referring to major depressive disorder, and for the purposes of this podcast, we’ll keep using the terms interchangeably. So, throughout this episode, “depression” will mean major depressive disorder.
Larisa: Mm-hm, thank you very much, Rodica. And when it comes to the symptoms, what are they? How can we tell whether we might be experiencing symptoms of depression, or whether someone close to us has these symptoms?
Rodica: Mm-hm. It might be easier if we divided the symptoms into four categories, mainly to help us understand them, rather than following the way they’re presented in the diagnostic manuals, because I know that assessment and diagnosis are something you’ll be discussing later. The four dimensions I’d like to refer to are the emotional, behavioural, cognitive, and physical dimensions. Let’s go through them one by one. Starting with the emotional symptoms, we’re referring to feelings of profound sadness and worthlessness. Essentially, those are the two main ones. Quite often, they’re accompanied by intense feelings of guilt, shame, or irritability. Also within this emotional domain, another phenomenon can occur, namely emotional numbness, where it becomes very difficult to feel anything at all, and we may struggle to identify what emotions we’re experiencing or how we’re responding emotionally to events happening around us.
Larisa: I wanted to ask, I think these are also the most common ones, aren’t they? The ones that most people associate with a diagnosis of depression.
Rodica: Absolutely, absolutely. When we interact with someone who is going through a difficult period like this, we can usually notice these emotional states quite easily. And on a personal level, these emotional experiences are also signs that we may be moving into the territory of depression. If we move on to the behavioural dimension, this is where we’ll notice a significant change in our level of motivation for everyday activities. We may find it increasingly difficult to engage with other people – here we’re talking about social interaction – to make decisions, or to keep up with commitments, whether they’re household responsibilities, work-related tasks, or schoolwork. Looking at the cognitive dimension, one of the most significant difficulties is with concentration. We’ll notice that it becomes very hard to focus, that we lose track of tasks more easily, and that we become mentally exhausted much more quickly when we need to make an intellectual effort. At the same time, even sustaining attention can require a great deal of energy. Cognitively, we may also experience increasingly negative, self-critical thoughts, often taken to the extreme, along with persistent self-blame. We may even begin to feel that life has no meaning and find ourselves thinking more about death – both in terms of fearing it and, in some cases, experiencing suicidal thoughts. On the physical side, we may notice changes both in our day-to-day functioning and over the longer term. Here, I’m referring to a reduced appetite, a decreased interest in sex, and changes in sleep patterns – we may sleep more or less than usual, feel restless, or even experience physical slowing, where it becomes very difficult to do simple things, such as getting out of bed. Changes in body weight, whether weight loss or weight gain, may also occur. Of course, everyone experiencing depression will experience these symptoms differently and in different contexts. A valuable resource for understanding depression is The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon. When it comes to diagnosis, Larisa can tell us more. Larisa, could you help us understand how depression is assessed and how a diagnosis of this disorder is made?
Larisa: Mm-hm, of course. First of all, I’ll have to look up the book myself, haha.
Rodica: It’s quite a journey.
Larisa: Mm-hm, of course. First of all, when it comes to measuring depression, in the strictest sense of the word, there are currently no objective methods for measuring depression or establishing a diagnosis. There are no blood tests or brain imaging techniques that can tell us with certainty whether someone has depression. For this reason, the assessment of the symptoms listed in the DSM-5 is carried out through a clinical interview, which forms the basis for making the diagnosis. There are nine diagnostic criteria, and a person needs to meet five of those nine symptoms. One symptom, however, is mandatory from the list, namely anhedonia. This essentially means that two people with the same diagnosis of depression may share only a single symptom. Because of this, depression can be thought of more as an umbrella term than as a single, unified syndrome, since there are hundreds of possible symptom combinations that could lead to the diagnosis. In other words, depression is a highly heterogeneous disorder, meaning it presents very differently from one person to another. As we mentioned earlier, two people can both have depression while sharing only one common symptom. For example, one of the diagnostic criteria is significant weight gain or weight loss. As you can imagine, although this counts as a single diagnostic symptom, it actually represents two completely different possibilities, meaning those individuals may be experiencing rather different difficulties. In an effort to account for these differences in presentation, the DSM-5 recognises five subtypes of depression: psychotic, catatonic, atypical, anxious, and melancholic. To receive a diagnosis of the melancholic subtype alone, for instance, an additional eight diagnostic criteria need to be considered. In practice, these subtypes introduce even more variability on top of the primary diagnosis, which, as we’ve discussed, is already highly diverse and can look very different from person to person. Although it was once believed that certain antidepressants worked better for particular subtypes, more recent studies involving larger groups of participants have not been able to replicate those findings. This is perhaps unsurprising, given the degree of heterogeneity even within the subtypes themselves. What’s more, these subtypes are not particularly stable over time. A person may meet the criteria for more than one subtype at different stages of their life, which again raises questions about the validity of these classifications. At the moment, however, this remains the way depression is assessed and diagnosed. You may be wondering why these details matter, or why we’ve spent so much time discussing how depression is measured. The reason is that the way we measure and diagnose depression is closely linked to treatment. It is difficult to develop treatments that work well for everyone if we do not fully understand the nature of the problem we are trying to treat, especially when we approach it as though it were a single condition, despite the fact that it can vary so greatly from one person to another.
Rodica: OK, thank you very much, Larisa, for those clarifications and for bringing in the research perspective. I think it’s particularly important that you highlighted just how much variability there can be in the symptoms. I also think it would be helpful now to move on to how people come to experience depression. So, could you explain the causes and the risk factors that contribute to the development of major depressive disorder?
Larisa: Of course, and I’ll start by saying that mental disorders, including depression, are extremely complex and arise from complex interactions between multiple factors, which can be biological, psychological, and social in nature. For a long time, research in this field was rather reductionist, in the sense that it focused too heavily on certain factors while neglecting others. For example, the biological model, or the chemical imbalance theory, which you’re probably familiar with, may play a role, but it does not capture the full complexity of the disorder. We certainly cannot say that depression is caused solely by a chemical imbalance. So, some of the factors that can increase the risk of developing depression – and again, it is most likely the interaction between several of these factors – include stressful life events such as the loss of a loved one, the end of a relationship, or losing a job. This has even led to the development of a branch of research that investigates the relationship between inflammation, as influenced by stress, and depression. Another important risk factor is genetics. For example, we know that if you have a close relative who has experienced depression, your own risk of developing depression is also higher. Traumatic experiences during childhood, whether physical or psychological, are another factor. Recent research also suggests that our perception of those experiences may be particularly important – not only whether they happened, but how we interpret and experience them. Loneliness, or more specifically social isolation, can also contribute to depression. The presence of other chronic illnesses, as well as certain types of medication, may also increase the risk, and these are all factors that are typically considered when someone seeks help from a psychiatrist or a psychologist because they’re experiencing symptoms of depression. So these are some of the main risk factors. But again, they don’t exclude one another, and they most likely interact in very complex ways. That’s why some people are exposed to many of these risk factors and never develop depression, while others do receive a diagnosis. We still don’t fully understand the exact combination of factors that leads to depression in some people but not in others, but this is the evidence we have at the moment. Rodica, perhaps you could continue from here, following the chronological flow of the story, haha, and explain how depression can be treated. If someone is experiencing depressive symptoms and wants to seek treatment, what types of psychotherapy are available, and how might they help?
Rodica: OK, of course. When it comes to psychotherapy, I’d like to begin by mentioning what I consider the essential ingredient for recovery: a therapeutic relationship in which the client feels safe and able to express intense emotions, a space where they feel heard and understood. This is the key ingredient I was referring to, and it forms the foundation of the entire therapeutic process, whether that process lasts a few weeks or several months. Within this setting, where the therapist listens, shows empathy, and makes space for the client’s emotional pain, the symptoms begin to make sense within the context of that person’s life story – which also relates to the causes you mentioned earlier, Larisa – and the strategies for reducing these difficulties gradually become clearer. When it comes to specific techniques, these vary depending on the therapeutic approach or school of psychotherapy. What we know from clinical practice is that it is extremely helpful for psychotherapists to be able to draw on evidence-based techniques from different therapeutic approaches. Depending on the individual case, some strategies may prove more effective than others, depending on the person’s particular symptoms and circumstances. These techniques may come from cognitive behavioural therapy, for example, as well as relational or systemic therapy, somatic experiencing, logotherapy, or art therapy.
Given the dimensions we outlined earlier when discussing symptoms, it can be helpful to begin by introducing strategies that target those areas. Reduced behavioural activation, which I mentioned earlier, often leads to thoughts that we are incapable or not good enough. These thoughts then give rise to intense feelings of worthlessness and sadness, which eventually have a physical impact as well, making it even harder to carry out everyday tasks. We can think of this as a cycle that therapy aims to address and ultimately break. We begin to break that cycle by working with the strength and energy we have available at that particular moment – resources that are often very difficult to access when someone is depressed. Even so, we need to use those resources to take on tasks that are appropriate for our current state. Here, we’re referring to the idea of the zone of proximal development, meaning that it’s best to choose tasks that we know are realistically within our reach, even when, for example, we can barely get out of bed or we’re feeling extremely lonely and deeply sad. As we gradually succeed in completing these small, manageable tasks that match our current abilities, we begin to build confidence both in ourselves and in the therapeutic process itself, a process that unfolds with the support of the psychotherapist.
It’s also very important to address the person’s underlying beliefs. The intense emotions they experience are often rooted in beliefs such as “I’m worthless”, “Nothing has any meaning”, or “I don’t deserve to be loved”. There are many different directions our minds can take in creating and maintaining these thoughts, and they need to become more flexible. Most of the time, this is something that can be achieved much more effectively with the support of a psychotherapist. Moreover, these beliefs may stem from unmet fundamental emotional needs during the early stages of life, particularly in childhood and adolescence. For that reason, it can be an important and deeply meaningful part of the healing process to work through those areas where essential emotional needs were not adequately met during those formative years. This also connects to what you mentioned earlier, Larisa, about a possible history of abuse. We can begin to heal those experiences by revisiting significant moments from the past and integrating them into our life story in a way that allows us to look back on those memories with compassion, while also learning to cope more effectively with present-day situations. This involves recognising the difference between what happened then and what is happening now, even if they share the same underlying emotional themes. For example, I may have felt lonely and rejected during adolescence, but now, as an adult, I can gradually learn to stop seeing myself as unworthy of love and affection, and instead begin to build healthy, meaningful relationships with the people around me.
Another area that can be particularly valuable to explore in psychotherapy is the reduced availability of what are often referred to as the “feel-good” hormones, which I know you’ll also touch on when discussing medication. However, there are also certain activities we can incorporate into our daily routines that may help regulate the chemical imbalances we often hear about. These activities are generally quite simple and mainly involve physical movement. This can include exercise, dancing, hiking, or any other activities that we genuinely enjoy.
Another important area of therapeutic work is the search for meaning. When we lack a sense of meaning or purpose, it becomes much easier to fall into the grip of depression. For that reason, developing a sense of meaning is essential, and this is where elements of logotherapy can be particularly helpful. As one of our Instagram followers asked, we can find meaning through our relationship with spirituality or faith, through committing ourselves to a cause we care deeply about, through volunteering or engaging in activism, or by living in accordance with other deeply held personal values. Integrating the body is also an important part of the process. This means understanding the physically distressing sensations associated with depression, given the physical dimension we discussed earlier. The first step is to understand why these physical experiences occur, and then to gradually incorporate self-care practices into our daily routine that help us care for our bodies and address these specific difficulties.
In addition to all of this, there is another very important and particularly sensitive area when it comes to people experiencing depression, namely the social dimension. It is essential that therapy helps people learn strategies for building healthy relationships and creating a supportive social environment. This means having access to support, knowing that we have friends and people who love us, and feeling able to express affection towards them in return. We know that this develops gradually over time, and it is something that can, once again, be nurtured with the support of a therapist.
In the later stages of therapy, once the symptoms have stabilised, it becomes important to identify the practices we want to continue incorporating into our lives as part of caring for ourselves across each of the dimensions we’ve discussed. At the same time, these ongoing habits can serve as a protective buffer against potential relapse.
Larisa: Thank you very much, Rodica. I think it’s really interesting to see how therapy addresses many of the same areas we discussed earlier in relation to symptoms and risk factors. These are approached step by step, allowing us to focus on specific difficulties rather than trying to tackle everything at once. I also find it interesting that there are practical exercises we can do to help ourselves feel better, including activities such as physical exercise, which may help address aspects of the chemical imbalance we talked about. I’m really glad you brought that up.
Rodica: Yes, and at the same time, these are relatively easy to put into practice once they become part of our daily routine. And since we’ve been talking about chemical imbalance, perhaps you could tell us a bit more about medication.
Larisa: Of course. I think it’s important to talk a little about medication as well. Medication can be combined with psychotherapy, and for many people, the combination of the two works very well. Equally, there are people who respond well to just one of these forms of treatment. Choosing to start medication is, first and foremost, a personal decision, one that should, of course, be discussed with both a psychiatrist and your psychologist.
It’s worth highlighting that the most widely used class of antidepressants is known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs, which are effective for around one-third of the people who try them. As their name suggests, these medications, which include sertraline, a drug you may already have heard of, help maintain higher levels of serotonin in the brain. In other words, they work primarily by acting on the brain’s serotonin system. However, although they are an effective treatment for many people, it usually takes between four and six weeks before their effects become noticeable. They do not work immediately, and during this period you are typically monitored by your psychiatrist to assess how well the medication is working for you. If it is not effective, your psychiatrist may recommend trying a different medication or adjusting the dose. All of these decisions should always be made in close consultation with, and under the guidance of, your psychiatrist. As we’ve already discussed, depression is a complex disorder, which is why researchers continue to investigate new medications for people who do not respond to the treatments currently available. There are indeed individuals who try several different classes of antidepressants without experiencing significant improvement. One such medication is esketamine, which is used for treatment-resistant depression, meaning depression that has not responded to any of the standard available treatments. It is by no means a first-line treatment, but it is a newer option that works primarily by modulating glutamate signalling, acting through a different biological pathway from the treatments we’ve already discussed, which work mainly by targeting the serotonin system.
I’m mentioning this simply to make you aware that these treatment options exist. It also illustrates, once again, just how complex depression really is. Even when we talk about a so-called chemical imbalance, we’re not referring to a single neurotransmitter or another in isolation. More likely, we’re dealing with an intricate network of interacting systems that we still do not fully understand. So, that’s a very brief overview of medication. Rodica has already talked about psychotherapy. Once again, if you’re experiencing symptoms of depression, the best course of action is to speak with a psychiatrist or a psychologist. We’d also like you to remember that the information we’re sharing in this podcast is exactly that—information. Rodica, perhaps you could now tell us a bit more about the role of family members and friends, and maybe offer some advice for loved ones. Given how common depression is, there’s a good chance that many of us know one or even several people among our friends or family who have experienced it.
Rodica: When it comes to the role of loved ones and some guidance for those supporting someone with depression, there are several important points to keep in mind. First of all, and here I’m speaking directly to family members and close friends of people experiencing depression, it’s clear that you want to be there for them and that you want to see them well and healthy again. The fact that your relationship or your interaction is no longer the same does not mean that the relationship has lost its meaning or that the love and care between you have disappeared. What is true, however, is that people experiencing depression often have very limited, or sometimes virtually no, emotional resources available. This is a general message for those of us who have watched someone we love go through depression and felt unsure how to cope or how to handle situations that may have been emotionally difficult for us as well. In those moments, what is needed from us is patience, compassion, and understanding of what the person experiencing depression is realistically able to offer. You may notice that you receive very little in return, or even that the person begins to push you away. It’s important to remember that this is not about who they are as a person, but rather about the responses and behaviours that are common features of depression.
This brings us to the second important point: as loved ones, we should try to separate the person from the symptoms. For example, my friend is an honest and responsible person, but their depression has made it impossible for them to keep up with their responsibilities for some time. Or, I know that my sister is naturally a kind and gentle person, yet the irritability that comes with depression has become evident in her behaviour recently.
Another thing we can do as family members or loved ones is to take on some of the responsibilities of the person experiencing depression, as much as we realistically can and when we have the capacity to do so. In this way, we can help interrupt the cycle I mentioned earlier, the one that people with depression often become trapped in. They are unable to complete their everyday tasks, which leads to negative beliefs and intense emotions about themselves, and those emotions, in turn, make it even harder to carry out those same tasks because of reduced physical and behavioural activation.
Also, during recovery, we need to give them the opportunity to try out easy tasks. This also ties in, by the way, with the first step I mentioned as being important in psychotherapy, so that they can build up their confidence and gradually return to their normal level of activity and to the tasks they are usually able to do.
Another important element: how do we help them? This is a classic question. Here, it’s worth knowing that, in my role as a partner, sibling, parent and so on, I don’t have a duty to cure a mental health disorder. The parallel with a broken leg is very useful: if I have someone close to me with a broken leg, there’s no way I can heal them; they need a doctor to oversee the problem and intervene with a cast, surgery or whatever else is needed. But what I can do is be there as a source of support. If they need to cry, shout in pain, or express their frustration at being unable to move, I can be there, listen to them and hold their hand. And that is exactly what helps us most when it comes to supporting our loved ones during periods of depression. They need to be in an environment where they can let things out, where they can express their thoughts, however dark and tangled they may often be, and express the intense emotions we keep mentioning: pain, sadness, guilt, helplessness in any form, and often shame. And they need to be able to do that in whatever way helps them. What truly helps is for us to try to understand and be present in their story, beside them, with them. And when they recover, they are much more likely to be grateful for a hand being held and a gentle, attentive look that conveys acceptance than for an attitude from us that is worried, on high alert and preoccupied with trying to solve everything left, right and centre. In general, what is known from a relational perspective on depression is that these elements of presence and empathy are healing: “I’m here and I’m listening to you”, “I can imagine how difficult this must be for you”, “Your pain makes sense, and thank you for trusting me enough to share it with me”, “Would you like to tell me more about how you’re feeling?”. These are just a few examples of things we can say when talking to someone close to us who is suffering and experiencing depression. In this way, they feel that they are not alone, which is a very common issue among people experiencing depression, and this will help them on the road to recovery.
However, it’s important to remember: there’s nothing wrong with us if, at some point, we feel that we’ve run out of resources and want to ask for help as carers. We all have our limits, and because everyone’s energy and capacity for effort are different, tools such as the campaigns run by MentAid, a Romanian NGO, can be helpful. They run campaigns that promote messages that are easy for carers of people with depression, and others, to understand and put into practice.
Larisa: Very interesting, thank you very much, Rodica! It’s really, really good to know that there are also campaigns or initiatives like this for carers, because I imagine that carers often suffer alongside their loved ones who are dealing with depression, so it’s good to know that there is help available for them too.
Rodica: Now I think we can move on to the questions from our viewers, and here, Larisa, perhaps you could help us with the first one? How can you get through a depressive episode without seeking help from a specialist?
Larisa: Certainly, in the case of less severe depression, it can resolve on its own; that is not out of the question. However, we encourage you, in all situations, to seek help if you have symptoms characteristic of depression that last for more than two weeks and affect your day-to-day life, the way you socialise, and the way you carry out your daily activities, especially since the course of depression is very rarely linear. So, even if you may think that it is not something particularly severe, it is always a good idea to talk to someone. First of all, talk to your loved ones or your friends, and then try to seek professional help, because it will certainly help you. And it is also important to seek help because people who have experienced depressive episodes also have up to three times the risk of experiencing episodes again in the future. So it is important to learn ways of managing these thoughts and feelings, as Rodica also described when talking about the methods that can be used in psychotherapy, for example.
Rodica: Okay. Thank you very much, Larisa! The next question would be, “How do we overcome impostor syndrome?” Would you help us with this one too?
Larisa: Of course. First of all, I think everyone would like to get rid of impostor syndrome, and I say that because I believe most people have felt at least… have felt this way at least once, in one context or another, if not more often than that. I’d like to point out that impostor syndrome is not specific to people who have been diagnosed with depression; we can all experience it. It is not a diagnosis, but rather a way of thinking, in which we have these negative thoughts and doubts about our abilities, and we think, “I wonder when the people around us will realise that we actually don’t belong here, that we don’t know as much as we claim to,” or other thoughts along those lines. So, what can we do, to answer the question? Well, there are several things we can do. There’s a quote that I quite like which says, “Don’t believe everything you think”, and that’s because not all of our thoughts are true, as is also the case with impostor syndrome. Just because we have these doubts doesn’t mean that they are necessarily true. We can be highly appreciated, have plenty of achievements, and still continue to have these doubts. So I encourage you to try to make a clear distinction between the facts, what is actually happening, your achievements, and the thoughts you have. You probably know more than you think, and if you are where you are, it means that you deserve to be there; it didn’t happen by accident or through sheer luck, as you may have thought at some point. Also, try not to compare yourself with others. I know that sounds easier than it is, but everyone is on their own journey, and just because we compare ourselves with someone doesn’t mean we’re going to get a better outcome, so there’s really no point.
Also, give yourselves the benefit of the doubt. In reality, most people who experience impostor syndrome are highly capable people with professional achievements, and the chances are that if you have these thoughts, you most likely are not an impostor. Also, keep track of your achievements. You can keep a document or a notebook where you regularly write down things that have gone well, moments when you have been praised for what you do, and use these resources when you experience doubts, precisely to remind yourselves how capable you are; in other words, make that distinction between facts and thoughts. And, of course, last but not least, if these thoughts persist, it is a very good idea to talk to a therapist and address these negative thoughts in therapy.
The next question we received is related to student or school life, and more specifically, how can depression affect us as pupils or students? Could you tell us a bit more about that, Rodica?
Rodica: Of course. First of all, as a general answer here, it could be what we covered earlier in the symptoms and treatment sections, regarding the strategies we can introduce. At the same time, specifically in the role of students or pupils, I would also emphasise the importance of the social environment, particularly during adolescence, but also during the period of emerging adulthood. It is quite possible for a particular phenomenon to occur: although it is natural for us to really want to be around people and to feel that we belong to groups or social connections, which are very healthy things for an adolescent, because of or against the background of depressive symptoms, we may find it very difficult to do this, to connect with people and spend time with them. Sometimes we may even push them away, and that would be an additional factor to consider for people in the role of students or pupils.
And, alongside this, depression can affect us at school or university in terms of performance, whether it’s practical work or theoretical subjects. At the same time, we may find it very difficult to invest extra time in practical activities or volunteering. At the same time, both aspects, the social context and performance, can be double-edged, in the sense that both can become pillars of the treatment we follow, with or without a therapist, which brings us back to the viewers’ question and also to the resources we often do or don’t have.
Larisa: And now we’ve reached the last question we received from one of our followers, namely: “How can you get rid of the feeling that you want everyone’s attention, but at the same time you want to be alone or want to be left alone?”
Rodica: Here I would say that loneliness, both as a feeling and as an objective way of spending our free time, is indeed an element of depression. We often like to be alone and, at the same time, the feeling of loneliness can be profound and overwhelming. As for the other part of the question, in the context of depression, wanting everyone’s attention translates into wanting to be listened to and understood. And here I would say that this is one of the most authentic and beautiful things that defines us as social beings. We are not left alone on this planet to fend for ourselves, but to live in communities and be in relationships, so the need to be listened to and the need to be understood are fundamental and very healthy things. When we’re talking about an excess, that’s probably why the question was asked in the first place, the optimal approach would be to integrate these feelings into our lives and find ways of regulating them so that they remain at an optimal level and don’t get in the way of either ourselves or those around us. At the same time, we should remind ourselves that we also have counsellors and therapists who can guide us through this process.
Larisa: Great, thank you very much, Rodica! We hope the answers we’ve given you have been helpful and, more generally, that you found the episode helpful. If you have any more questions or if there are other aspects of depression that you would like us to discuss, we’re more than happy to address them, perhaps even in future episodes. But we really wanted this episode to be about depression – what it is, how it presents, what the main treatment methods are, and how we can support someone we love who is suffering from depression. We really hope you enjoyed today’s episode, and we look forward to seeing you again in the next one. Until then, take care of yourselves and your mental health. Bye-bye!
