Talking to a psychologist

Larisa: Hello and welcome to the Mental Health for Romania podcast! In today’s episode, we’re talking about what it’s like to work as a psychologist, what studying psychology at university involves, what further training you can undertake afterwards and, of course, we’ll be answering your questions. I’m Larisa, I’m a psychologist and a researcher in the field of psychiatry in the UK. I use medical imaging to understand cognitive mechanisms and clinical studies to investigate the effectiveness of non-pharmacological interventions for ADHD. I also coordinate research studies on young people’s mental health. In short, using my training in psychology, I chose to pursue a career in research. Today, I’m joined by Rodica, who is specialising in psychotherapy. Together, we hope to bring two different perspectives on what a psychologist can do.

Rodica: Hello! I’m Rodica, I’m a psychologist too, and I’m in my final year of a master’s degree at UBB in Cluj, specialising in counselling and human development. I’m also an accredited personal development counsellor and a relational psychotherapist in training. I have experience working on volunteer projects with adolescents and young people, and in my psychological practice I have experience with emotional difficulties, relationship issues and career-related concerns.

Larisa: Mhm. Great, I’m really glad we can do today’s episode together. So, to get started, could you tell us what specifically motivated you to choose to study psychology?

Rodica: It’s really nice for me to take this trip down memory lane, because I have to go back to my school days to answer this question. I’d say that what really motivated me was the desire to help people, which I discovered in myself, and how much I enjoyed talking to them. I’ve always found it fascinating to sit and listen to people, so for me there was a natural tendency to be around people, and that’s something I’ve carried with me ever since, in terms of interest, enjoyment and motivation. At the same time, this eventually came with a certain risk, you could say, because at one point I realised that if I continued to spend all my time around people and focusing on them, without looking after myself, it wouldn’t be good for me and I wouldn’t be of any use to my clients either. That’s something we discover, and people who work with and for other people discover it too, and there’s a saying we use that applies here: “less is better” or “less is more”. But the main idea is that I’ve always enjoyed and been fascinated by being around people.

Larisa: Mhm, mhm, very, very interesting, and I can relate to your answer too. Ha ha ha. When it comes to studying psychology at university, I know that many young people are considering becoming psychologists or psychotherapists, but I’m sure that not everyone actually knows what you learn on a psychology degree. Could you tell us a bit more about it?

Rodica: Mhm, sure, yes, I’ve come across various myths about this too, and I think it’s useful to clear some of them up. In general, we can say that a psychology degree focuses on providing you with a body of knowledge about how the human mind works, how people behave in certain groups and contexts, and how emotions work, for example. The undergraduate courses also teach you how to approach all these things from a scientific perspective, in the sense that we learn about what is currently known, what studies have been carried out, and how things are studied rigorously so that this knowledge can subsequently be put into practice. At the same time, all of these aspects are also considered in terms of their practical application, so that you can help the people you’ll eventually work with, whatever field we’re talking about. And if we’re talking about different fields, undergraduate courses really do give you an introduction to the different paths you can pursue afterwards, whether that’s organisational psychology, psychotherapy, counselling, research, which I know you’re going to tell us more about in a moment, or areas such as forensic psychology and psychology applied to people with certain disabilities. There are different specialisations available both at undergraduate level and through master’s programmes. When I say master’s programmes, I mean that these are the most common routes and are offered by universities, but we also have access to additional training courses outside the university system, which help us prepare for different areas, not just psychotherapy but also the other fields I mentioned. And as I was saying, when it comes to research, Larisa, if you’d like to tell us a bit more and give us some more insights, I think that would be really useful.

Larisa: Mhm, sure. I think it’s really interesting for our listeners to know that there are so many applications within the field of psychology and that, ultimately, it’s such a versatile degree, as you said. You can go from clinical psychology to forensic psychology and so many areas in between. I work in research, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode. During your undergraduate degree, you build a general foundation, as you said, in various branches of psychology, and then you can specialise through master’s or doctoral programmes. Psychological research is actually a field in its own right, because you can specialise in researching particular disorders, study mechanisms such as biological, psychological or social mechanisms, or, indeed, the interaction between all three. You can focus on interventions, including clinical trials, or you can focus on epidemiology, and the methods are incredibly diverse: from online questionnaires to medical imaging, and, more recently, mobile applications, digital interventions, studies involving people or even animals. So there’s a whole range of methods and applications within research too. Research in psychology is also essential and underpins all the other branches because, as you said, in psychology, just as in any other science, it’s very important to base our work on scientifically established evidence, precisely so that we can better understand the biopsychosocial mechanisms underlying psychiatric disorders, or better understand cognitive functions or human behaviour in general, which we all know is very complex, so that we can ultimately provide effective, scientifically proven treatments. An important trend in psychological research at the moment is personalised treatment, with a focus on the early detection and prevention of disorders. This usually happens during adolescence or, more broadly, among young people. Precisely because psychiatric disorders are so diverse and heterogeneous, meaning that they present differently in different people, it’s important to personalise our treatments and approaches according to the person we’re working with.

Rodica: Mhm, absolutely, I can confirm that from my own practice as well. Quite often, when we work with someone, we realise that having a protocol is invaluable and extremely important, but at the same time, we need to have the flexibility and creativity to genuinely help the person sitting in front of us.

Larisa: Absolutely. The next question is about the Baccalaureate, and we’re being asked which subjects we should take for the Baccalaureate if we’re considering studying psychology at university.

Rodica: Here, more than anything, I’d like to direct our viewers towards finding out the relevant information for themselves. There isn’t a single, universally applicable answer that I could give, or that you could give, Larisa, precisely because there are specific regulations that vary depending on the university and faculty. What I can say is that, in order to apply to or be admitted to a particular faculty, there are regulations set by each individual faculty, university and degree programme, as I mentioned. So, if we look online, we can see that the admissions requirements at a university in Oradea, for example, may be different from those at one in Brașov or Timișoara, if we’re just talking about Romania.

Larisa: Yes.

Rodica: So, what I would advise our viewers to do is to check regularly, if they’re interested in applying to particular universities, and to keep checking the websites of the relevant degree programmes and universities for the most up-to-date information. On top of that, there are certain places you can turn to for information about the admissions process. I’m talking specifically about university faculty offices, for example, where it’s important to realise that we can simply give them a call and find out a great deal of information. At the same time, a more informal and approachable option could be student organisations or student councils, which we can also find online and which can be reliable sources of information. If there’s a trustworthy source that can tell us what the admissions process is like, that’s going to be useful for each of us. So my recommendation is to reach out to student centres, organisations and counselling centres, which can often provide this kind of information, as well as faculty offices, and that can make the admission requirements much clearer.

Larisa: Absolutely, thank you very much, Rodica. And I also think it’s important to look into these things as far in advance as possible, precisely so that we can be well prepared.

Rodica: Sure.

Larisa: The next question also came from someone on Instagram, and they’re asking, “If I have a degree in English or modern languages, would it be okay to do a master’s in psychology, or would I need to start from scratch and do an undergraduate degree in psychology first?”

Rodica: Okay. Here, the answer is going to be both vague and specific at the same time. It depends on the motivation behind wanting to do that particular master’s degree or training programme. And by that I mean anything from wanting to build a foundation of knowledge, to developing certain skills, obtaining certifications, joining certain social groups, getting practical experience, and considering what type of practical experience that might be. And if we’re talking about psychotherapy practice, for example, you need to check with the relevant master’s or postgraduate training programmes we talked about earlier whether they are suitable for the type of training you’re looking for. First of all, you need to check the admission requirements and, at the same time, what qualification you can obtain at the end of the course or programme, depending on your undergraduate degree. Because there are certain qualifications they can offer you, but these can vary depending on the degree you’ve completed. So, once again, the best approach is to do your research and establish for yourself what your goal is in choosing a particular training programme.

Larisa: Mhm, great, thank you. We also have another really good question, one that we should all think about, and the sooner, the better: how can we figure out what we enjoy doing?

Rodica: Yes, it’s a very broad question, and it opens up some really broad areas of self-discovery, which is ultimately a fundamental part of building a career. So, when it comes to self-discovery, I’d start with the personality traits that each of us has and that we can reflect on, for example, through different questions. I’ll give you a few questions that can serve as a guide across different dimensions. When it comes to personality traits, we can ask ourselves: “Okay, do I like being surrounded by people, or do I prefer spending time alone? Do I recover easily from an upsetting everyday event, or do I need more time? How open am I to new experiences?” These are just a few questions we can ask ourselves, and they can tell us certain things about consistent tendencies in our personality. At the same time, we can look at interests, which are very, very important: “What are those activities that we get so absorbed in that we don’t even notice how quickly time passes or look at the clock?” Values are also very important: “What do I believe in? What causes do I want to get involved in over the long term, in terms of my career and professional path? What do I want to see in the people I work with? What principles do I want to see reflected in the way I work and do my job?” At the same time, we can also look at lifestyle. This is another fairly important factor when it comes to professional decisions: “What do I want my life to look like in one year, five years, ten years?” And we can also reflect on our skills, the ones we currently have and the ones we want to develop, and this will influence our decisions. What I’d like to emphasise here, regardless of these different dimensions and how easy or difficult it may be for each of us to look at them and reflect on ourselves, is that the goal of this self-discovery process isn’t to tick every box I’ve mentioned above or to make sure that the career decisions we make fit perfectly with everything that defines us. At the same time, it’s important to keep checking in with these aspects, to keep exploring them and making the most of them as much as we can, so that the decisions we make are considered and intentional, whether that’s at undergraduate level, at master’s level or even further down the line, such as a PhD or in our professional practice.

If I were to focus specifically on counselling or psychotherapy, I’ve spent quite a bit of time thinking about how to answer this, and I think the most relevant thing to say is that it’s important for there to be a part of us that feels comfortable being around people, working with people, or working for their benefit, even if that doesn’t involve direct interaction. We often hear examples like, “We enjoy listening to people, we enjoy teaching them, explaining things to them, cheering them up.” All of these can be signs that we have a tendency to be there for people, with people, around people. So whether that’s a skill, a trait that defines our personality as a whole, or simply an activity we enjoy, it will matter if we have that foundation. At the same time, there are other qualities that prove to be important in the career of a psychologist: being organised, curious, enjoying challenges, having fairly good emotional regulation skills. And, with that, I’d like to end by saying that there are so many things we can develop over time. That’s the point I really want to emphasise: we don’t have to have certain qualities by default, as if they were simply an on-off switch, but it’s very helpful to give ourselves the time to develop them so that we can genuinely help people in therapy or in whatever other area of psychological practice we choose to pursue.

Larisa: Mhm, very interesting, Rodica, thank you! I think the point you made at the end is really valuable, namely that these qualities can be developed. Ultimately, a psychology degree also plays an important role in that, but it’s important to be honest with ourselves and assess our strengths, and simply think about what we’d like our lives to look like in the long term – what time we’d like to wake up, what activities we’d like to do during the day, how we’d like to feel at the end of the day, and the people we’d like to surround ourselves with, as you said. Another interesting question we received on Instagram is about the main types of psychotherapy, more specifically, what they are and what training we need to undertake to become psychotherapists?

Rodica: If I’m speaking specifically about Romania, to become a psychotherapist, you need to complete a particular type of master’s degree within a psychology faculty. When I say “become a psychotherapist”, I mean obtaining the right to practise independently and being able to work with clients with the appropriate professional authorisation. If we realise at some point that psychotherapy is genuinely one of our career goals, it’s important to find out well in advance about the options available and the qualifications that can be obtained through the master’s programmes we’re considering. Of course, there are also additional training courses and programmes outside the university system, which we talked about earlier, and the same recommendation applies to all of them: it’s important to find out what qualification you’ll obtain, what the requirements are, how the programme trains you, what area it prepares you for, and so on. Some of the training approaches I’m familiar with in Romania include behavioural therapy, psychoanalytic therapy, systemic therapy and positive psychotherapy. I’d mention these as some of the main ones, although I’m sure I’ve left out others and the range of options is quite broad. Regardless of the type of psychotherapy training we choose, I think it’s essential to give ourselves the time and space to develop certain socio-emotional skills on a personal level, to take part in self-awareness activities and, very often, it’s also helpful and recommended by trainers to undertake our own personal therapy.

Larisa: Thank you very much, Rodica! I find that really interesting. The next question we received is also a very interesting one, and I’m glad people are thinking about this aspect too: “What risks are involved in working as a psychologist, if you consider there to be any risks involved, of course?”

Rodica: Not only would I say that there are certain risks, but this was also a question I spent a lot of time thinking about. The biggest risk I’ve personally experienced and also seen around me is becoming completely identified with the role of being a psychologist – becoming the psychologist for your friends, your partner and, perhaps worst of all, sometimes for yourself. Being a psychologist does involve certain changes in the way you think, your habits and your reactions, but it’s essential at some point to separate how much you’re doing for yourself from how much you’re doing as part of your development as a psychologist. You need to invest both in activities you personally enjoy and in those that contribute to your professional development. That’s a boundary that needs to be established over time in any profession, and yes, we can see that it can be a little more blurred in a field where we work with and for people. We could perhaps say the same about social or medical professions. Another risk, although I wouldn’t necessarily call it that, but it is certainly a sensitive area, is encountering things in your practice that activate your own wounds or vulnerabilities. I wouldn’t really call this a “risk” because, although it can be painful and very uncomfortable, it can also be a genuine opportunity for growth, both personally and professionally. Becoming aware of these moments and engaging in introspection, which are already practised throughout professional training, can help us work through, look after and heal those areas. There’s another phrase I was told for a long time and that I’ve also come to embrace, and I’m glad I did: it’s a process of growth. Again, it’s not an on-off switch, something you either have or don’t have, but something you develop over time.

Larisa: Mhm. Do you think there are certain stereotypes that psychologists encounter in their practice, and how do you think psychologists and psychotherapists can deal with these stereotypes?

Rodica: Yes, that’s another really great question, and I’m glad our viewers thought about this aspect too. I’d break it down into two parts: the first is stereotypes coming from clients. To mention a few, I could say, for example, “I just need to talk about it and I’ll get better”, “Just give me a few strategies as a therapist and I’ll manage on my own afterwards”, “I don’t need to talk about things from my childhood or adolescence, I just need to work on the present”, “The psychologist asks the questions and I have to tell them absolutely everything, otherwise they can’t solve my problem”, and of course, the examples could go on. How do we deal with these as psychologists? I think the most appropriate answer here is with kindness, because it helps to talk in therapy about the things that genuinely get in the way of the therapeutic process, such as stereotypes or myths, but without completely invalidating the person’s perspective. For me, as a psychologist, it’s much more important to understand why they have these thoughts or beliefs and to show them over time that I’m there as a companion, a guide, rather than a preacher or an instruction manual. And I say “show” because, again, this is a process, something that can be built over time; it’s not something you can simply dismantle. When it comes to stereotypes on the other side, so to speak, from the therapist’s perspective, I’d say that in the early years of practice, stereotypes can become intertwined with our own insecurities. For example: “If someone comes to me with anxiety, they’re going to need a lot of support, and maybe I won’t be able to cope or be helpful enough.” Here, as psychologists, it’s important to have the courage to try in the first place and to remain open and curious about the client’s authentic story, their actual experience. And I can say that we’ll be pleasantly surprised, because this is what really strengthens the therapeutic relationship and ultimately helps create the healing process for the client. Also, over time, if we notice as therapists that we find it difficult to work with a particular type of case, we need to have the courage to decline those cases when necessary, making recommendations to other psychologists. And for everyone who is going through this training process, it’s really useful to understand that there’s nothing wrong with making referrals and declining certain cases when necessary.

Larisa: Absolutely. I think the next question is based a little on a myth that we’ve discussed as well, namely, we were asked whether there is a test that can tell you, based on your personality, which type of therapy you should choose. And I think I’ll start by…

Rodica: Sure.

Larisa: I’d like to start by emphasising that the type of therapy you undergo is something you determine together with your psychotherapist, based on the problem or disorder you want to address through therapy and, of course, the psychotherapist’s particular areas of expertise. An analogy I often make is with the medical system: just as doctors specialise in particular branches of medicine and develop different areas of expertise within those branches, psychotherapists also specialise in one or more types of therapy. There isn’t necessarily one psychotherapist who knows or practises every type of therapy. Here, I’d like to mention cognitive behavioural therapy, which is the most extensively researched form of therapy, with its effectiveness and efficacy demonstrated in clinical studies, and which is currently considered a benchmark in the field of psychological therapies. It is used particularly in the treatment of depression and anxiety disorders, but it has also been adapted to address other problems, such as eating disorders and even psychosis. Another type of therapy you may have heard of, which is used particularly in the treatment of borderline personality disorder, is dialectical behaviour therapy. This is also supported by scientific evidence and has been successfully used to treat other disorders as well, such as bulimia, binge-eating disorder and substance use disorders. So, essentially, there isn’t a personality test you take to determine which type of therapy you’ll be offered. Rather, the choice of therapy is based on the problems you want to address and, again, on the psychotherapist’s training and expertise. Would you like to add anything, Rodica?

Rodica: Thank you so much, Larisa, for that insight from the scientific perspective, because it’s really relevant to have a lens on this side of things as well. What I’d also like to add here, as a final point to this question, is that regardless of the type of therapy, a very important ingredient, whose effectiveness has been scientifically demonstrated, is the relationship that develops between the client and the psychologist. We call this the therapeutic relationship. There are studies showing that the therapeutic relationship accounts for around 30% of the effectiveness of treatment for certain problems and the changes that clients come to therapy hoping to make. That’s quite a significant percentage. So, what I’d really like to emphasise here is that, when we become open to therapeutic change, it’s useful to give ourselves both the time and the space to develop the relationship we want to build, both from the therapist’s perspective and from the client’s.

Larisa: Mhm. Very interesting, thank you, Rodica! So, it’s important to establish a good, professional relationship with the therapist we’re working with. And finally, haha, I’ve saved this question for last: what does a psychotherapist actually do? What does this profession involve? What does a day in your life as a psychotherapist look like? Can you tell us a bit more?

Rodica: As a general overview of psychotherapeutic practice, I’d say that a therapist’s role is to create a safe environment for the client, so that they can open up and practise making certain changes they want to make in their personal life. That’s the foundation, our golden rule, so to speak. From there, of course, we can mention some of the types of problems that someone with this qualification and training in psychotherapy can work with. Generally speaking, psychotherapy training provides practitioners with the skills to work with people across the whole spectrum, from problems that are simply uncomfortable or disruptive in someone’s life to clinical conditions that require a diagnosis. There are also training programmes that focus on specific disorders and are recommended for certain conditions, as you mentioned earlier. For example, dialectical behaviour therapy for borderline personality disorder. Generally, therapists offer strategies that help people understand what they’re feeling, why they’re feeling it, and how they can integrate their emotions into their lives in a way that doesn’t negatively affect them. I chose to use emotions as an example because, in most cases, the emotional aspect is relevant across all disorders, both at a clinical level, where we’re talking about a diagnosis, and at a subclinical level, where there are simply certain problems that are causing distress. At the same time, therapists help clients set realistic goals: how to incorporate healthy habits into their lives, how to have fulfilling relationships, and how to build a professional life that is satisfying for them. And I said “realistic goals” precisely because, when we’re dealing with clinical conditions, it’s very important to work step by step. For example, with a client experiencing a depressive episode, we wouldn’t set the goal of having them present a paper at a conference, and in the case of someone with borderline personality disorder, we wouldn’t set the goal of them entering a long-term romantic relationship. To wrap up, I’d also like to leave you with the idea that psychotherapy sessions give clients the opportunity to experiment with and practise healthier ways of relating to themselves, relating to others, and functioning and performing in their professional environment. I sometimes think of the sessions as a kind of demo version that clients can experience, which they can then take with them and practise in their real lives. And as for what my life looks like, my life is full of metaphors, just like the one I just used, because it’s something I use both for myself and in my practice. Metaphors always work well when we’re working with clients. I’d like to say a big thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk a little about my experience and about what I’ve had the chance to learn and experience so far in psychotherapeutic practice, and I really like that I’ve also had the benefit of your insights from the research side.

Larisa: Mhm. Thank you so much, Rodica! It was a real pleasure to hear your story, your motivation for applying to study psychology, and then your insights into life as a psychotherapist. I think our listeners will also enjoy this episode, not only because it provides really useful information about career preparation, particularly when it comes to applying to study psychology, but also because it helps them learn more about what being a psychotherapist involves and, why not, what to expect and what kinds of problems they might seek help from a psychotherapist for. Thank you so much for listening this far, and we look forward to having you with us for our next episode. Until then, take care of yourselves and your mental health!